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Cigarette Card Collecting Discussions => General Cigarette Card Collecting Discussion => Topic started by: searching on September 19, 2016, 01:40:44 AM

Title: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: searching on September 19, 2016, 01:40:44 AM
Hello, Harry Vardon and Harold Hilton, Ogdens 1898

Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: sparsholtboy on September 19, 2016, 08:42:47 AM
Fantastic cards, seen the repros but didn't know any real ones existed. I have these two in the OG 97 'subset' tabs. As a relatively new Ogden collector, I'm keen to contact others who may be able to help fill gaps in my Tab collection
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: bri.d on September 19, 2016, 11:15:29 AM
very desirable cards  david (ogdenscards) has a few cards from this set. not sure if he's got the vardon card
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: exdrummer on September 19, 2016, 12:16:06 PM
I've only seen the cricketers from this set, they are very rare. I'm sure the golfers will be very sought after....
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Steve F on September 19, 2016, 01:01:44 PM
Spectacular cards from the rare 1899 Ogden's "Green gravure" issues...

i'd love to add them to my Cricket ones - I have 25/36 with 10/14 remaining 'non cricket issues' (No Golfers), making 35/50 which is a big chunk of them even though some have the TAB's missing. The paper base of the card is pretty ordinary, so they seldom appear in good condition with the TAB's remaining, which makes these two exceptional cards.

The best I can offer is this one, which is in VG+ Condition and remains one of the favorite cards in my collection (for obvious reasons)...

Cheers & thanks for sharing the Vardon & Hilton cards
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on September 21, 2016, 04:04:01 PM
Nice cards, Brian is right I am missing both, also as said before condition is always important but these do not turn up in top condition very often.
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on September 21, 2016, 09:29:47 PM
Fantastic cards, seen the repros but didn't know any real ones existed. I have these two in the OG 97 'subset' tabs. As a relatively new Ogden collector, I'm keen to contact others who may be able to help fill gaps in my Tab collection

Have 1000's of duplicate Ogden's cards, email me eandavidthompson@gmail.com
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: morph on October 31, 2016, 10:40:00 PM
Are they for sale? Great cards and like most never seen an original Vardon.
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: searching on November 02, 2016, 06:21:25 AM
Hello ,
           I thank you for asking, but the Harry Vardon and Harold Hilton cards are not for sale at this point in time.

I am very pleased you, and many others are enjoying seeing them.

Paul.




 
 
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Joshrhodesss on November 06, 2016, 11:22:49 PM
I'm curious Now , if they were for sale what price would they realise ?
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: searching on November 07, 2016, 09:52:55 AM
Hello ,
            I am not sure what they are worth. They are not for sale.

They are very desirable , and possibly two of the three, first golfer image cigarette cards ever produced.
Although I am not absolutely sure about that.

There are others that are far more knowledgeable than myself and I would welcome their opinion if that is correct.

Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on November 07, 2016, 12:05:39 PM
The format, size and image of the cards is conducive with the turn of the century, 1901- 2. This period of Ogden's was under the ownership of the American Trust, the period we call the Tobacco War.

The image is the same as found in all the golfing cards of that period.

A few series of  Tabs
Numbered Guinea Golds
Base I numbered

Which came first is not exactly known as it would have only been months apart.

Value is dictated by desirability and rarity and these have both, unfortunately a little let down by condition. However some may be worth more than you hoped, email me and we can discuss.
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Steve F on November 08, 2016, 11:12:25 AM
David,

According to Pg 35 of Derek Deadman's 1985 edition of "Cricket Cigarette and Trade Cards - an extended listing", these cards are recorded as Cricketers and Sportsmen (Adopted Title), Unnumbered (50), Green Gravure printing, 1899 - 36 Cricketers.

Your note indicates you don't believe them manufactured until 1901/02 - can you identify why you think this is the case?

I've always believe Deadman's research was pretty accurate and he also suggests that the Base M's (both the wide spaced and closed spaced capitals) were produced in 1899 as well.

It makes sense whenever both sets were produced that they were done in the same time frame as the English Cricket subjects in both issues are similar.

As posted earlier I've got a fair few of these cards 35/50 (25/36 cricketers & 10/14 others - no golfers) but would love to be able to also confirm whether they are 1899 or 1901/02.

Hope you can confirm one way or the other?
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on November 08, 2016, 11:55:39 AM
Nothing is definite as the definitive proof does not exist as of yet, but indications from other series suggests this period. What we need to do and I haven't done this yet is to find out when the pictures were actually taken.

I would be surprised if an image appeared in 1899 and the same image appeared in the Guinea Gold numbered series 3 years later.

I know that the team Captained by Joe Darling toured England 1899 and this is I believe the reason 1899 has been previously mentioned, it cannot be before that and also a little time needed for the process of producing the series, Joe Darling captained until 1905 google tells me.

The whole series would not have been produced until following the last photograph which I do not as yet know the dates, of course this presumes that all were printed together, which I do think is likely.

This series has been recorded as an overseas issue, the subjects may suggest Australia as the point of issue that I do not know.

The series known as Actress - Green Photogravure is the same format again with images of other series, but again listed as 1899 but only because of the Cricket and Sportsman series.

I would like to find out which brand the cards were issued in

So to answer your question specifically, the period I mentioned was the period when these images were being used the most.

I would appreciate your input into establishing your slant on the dates i.e. when the photos were taken, and not because of what the book says which is it could not be before 1899 and not before the tour.

Also, and again your input, do the cards only represent 1899 and not following years.

You now have a challenge.
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on November 08, 2016, 11:59:21 AM
Another question are there any other series of other issuers that could aid the dating of the images.
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on November 08, 2016, 12:19:50 PM
Vardon won the British open June 1899, his third of his six wins, at St Georges in Kent, is this were the photograph was taken. The background must be recognised by someone.
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Jediknight on November 08, 2016, 10:01:27 PM
David,

According to Pg 35 of Derek Deadman's 1985 edition of "Cricket Cigarette and Trade Cards - an extended listing", these cards are recorded as Cricketers and Sportsmen (Adopted Title), Unnumbered (50), Green Gravure printing, 1899 - 36 Cricketers.

Your note indicates you don't believe them manufactured until 1901/02 - can you identify why you think this is the case?

I've always believe Deadman's research was pretty accurate and he also suggests that the Base M's (both the wide spaced and closed spaced capitals) were produced in 1899 as well.

It makes sense whenever both sets were produced that they were done in the same time frame as the English Cricket subjects in both issues are similar.

As posted earlier I've got a fair few of these cards 35/50 (25/36 cricketers & 10/14 others - no golfers) but would love to be able to also confirm whether they are 1899 or 1901/02.

Hope you can confirm one way or the other?

In my opinion the Cricketers & Sportsmen set can't possibly have been issued prior to 1900.

This is based purely on the 2 golf cards shown in this thread.

The caption on the Vardon card states 'World's Golf Champion'. He was referred to as this after he won the Open Championship in 1899 (for 3rd time) & then travelled across the Atlantic in 1900 for a mini tour of the USA & Canada playing numerous matches. He then proceeded to win that year's U.S. Open (October 1900) & in doing so became golf's 1st international celebrity.

The caption on the Hilton card states 'Amateur Golf Champion'. Hilton won the Amateur Championship in 1900 & again in 1901.

Based on that I'd be inclined to believe late 1900 was the earliest the set could possibly have been issued.
And although Hilton won the Amateur Championship again the next year (1901), The Open Championship (James Braid) & U.S. Open (Willie Anderson) were won by other golfers.
So would be unlikely Vardon would still be referred to as 'World's Golf Champion' after that.

Therefore I would think late 1900/early 1901 is the timeframe the set was most likely issued in.

As I said, that is based purely on having seen the scans of those 2 golf cards. I don't have any cards from that set in my collection. Are there any subjects &/or captions in the cricketers or other non-cricket subjects that could help prove or disprove 1900/01 as the issue date?

Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: searching on November 09, 2016, 05:30:31 AM
You guys make my head hurt, (big smile) but can we can solve the puzzle?
I disagree that the images are after 1900. And stand happy to be corrected at a later time if need be.

Thankyou for your input, Jediknight , David, Steve F, you all have good points.

Jediknight, you wrote,
“In my opinion the Cricketers & Sportsmen set can't possibly have been issued prior to 1900”.
“The caption on the Hilton card states 'Amateur Golf Champion'. Hilton won the Amateur Championship in 1900 & again in 1901”.
But, Harold Hilton was the 1897 Amateur Champion (+ 1892 champ) and the Low Amateur in 1898.

On the Vardon card , you wrote,
“The caption on the Vardon card states 'World's Golf Champion”
“He was referred to as this after he won the Open Championship in June 1899 (for 3rd time) “
So you actually say he was referred to as the Worlds Golf Champion prior to 1899..  (which is what is printed on the card)

And Jediknight, they are very good points of interest to ponder over.

David , you note this interesting feature, this one is a cracker if it can be solved.
Vardon won the British open June 1899, his third of his six wins, at St Georges in Kent, is this were the photograph was taken. The background must be recognised by someone.
A quick look at other I Base Ogdens golfer cards , I note that John Graham has the identical background,(as Vardon) and several others show glimpses of the same brick structure type.
If someone can only recognise that building with the arched window. 
Suggesting a golf club house ?    Is this your historic club house ?
Come on golf enthusiasts, please help.

Now on Ogdens cards and some references I found using my Murrays book.
Murrays note the set 50 Cricketers and Sportsmen as 1898.  A fair indicator at this point in time.
The set is not listed there as an Australian issue or under Other Overseas Issues, not in my publication anyway.

Steve F points out possibly M base , but Steve I cant find any base that has the word OGDENS spelt in capitals, so I don’t know what that means, I did try a check of all the bases, but my resource is limited..

The Ogdens I Base 1901 Vardon card (with the identical image), has the caption  “1896 , 1897 ,1899 and American Champion 1900” on it.  This obviously has to be produced after October 1900. 
So if my Vardon Ogdens card was also printed after October 1900, why would it would have that same caption.

Another factor I think its earlier is that it is not a photographic photo, like nearly all other early Ogdens cards. Possibly even by a different printer.

My suggestion is the 1898 set is the original image used over by Ogdens on various cards, and used by other brands on their cards, over various years..


Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Jediknight on November 09, 2016, 12:52:56 PM

Jediknight,

On the Vardon card , you wrote,
“The caption on the Vardon card states 'World's Golf Champion”
“He was referred to as this after he won the Open Championship in June 1899 (for 3rd time) “
So you actually say he was referred to as the Worlds Golf Champion prior to 1899..  (which is what is printed on the card)


@ searching

That's not what I was saying.

I meant he was not not referred to as World's Golf Champion until after he won the 1900 U.S Open to go along with The Open Championship he won the previous year. So therefore in my opinion the caption & hence the card couldn't/wouldn't have been produced/issued until October 1900 at earliest.

When you refer to the date of the images, that brings up a whole different question. The images used may well be earlier. Some of the other Guinea Gold golfers use images that were taken at least 2 years prior to the card being issued, so the images on your cards may well be from prior 1900.



Jediknight, you wrote,
“In my opinion the Cricketers & Sportsmen set can't possibly have been issued prior to 1900”.
“The caption on the Hilton card states 'Amateur Golf Champion'. Hilton won the Amateur Championship in 1900 & again in 1901”.
But, Harold Hilton was the 1897 Amateur Champion (+ 1892 champ) and the Low Amateur in 1898.


Harold Hilton was the Open Champion in 1897 & 1892 (not Amateur Champion) - although he did win both whilst still an amateur (as opposed to Vardon etc. who were all professionals).
He was Amateur Champion in 1900 & 1901.
Different titles/competitions.
To back this up Hilton’s Guinea Gold card caption also states Amateur Champion but along with the years 1900 & 1901 (no mention of 1892 & 1897).

The Open Championship was the most significant/prestigious title that could be won at that time.

If the set was issued after Hilton was the Open Champion in 1897, then Vardon would not have been known as World’s Champion Golfer at that time.



The Ogdens I Base 1901 Vardon card (with the identical image), has the caption  “1896 , 1897 ,1899 and American Champion 1900” on it.  This obviously has to be produced after October 1900. 
So if my Vardon Ogdens card was also printed after October 1900, why would it would have that same caption.


The Vardon card you refer to is in the General Interest numbered series not the Base I set of Golfers.

Same image, different captions as you correctly stated.

The Guinea Gold most likely issued slightly later (1902 in my opinion, judging by by the other golf subjects & captions) when he was no longer the reigning champion so just lists his wins by years.

So for me, the Cricketer & Sportsmen were probably issued late 1900/early 1901 & the Guinea Gold Golfers (both General Interest numbered & un numbered Base I) were probably issued 1902.

Only my opinion & very difficult to prove conclusively either way but always interesting & fun to hear different views.

Still great cards regardless & thanks for showing them!!
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on November 09, 2016, 04:33:50 PM
The numbered series according to the adverts that appeared in the press 1-200 June 1901, followed by, in February 1902 the numbers following  201-1000. The golfers are in the 400's
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on November 09, 2016, 04:40:30 PM
Am totally enjoying this post and this I believe is the only way any certainty can be ascertained.

Must remember the turmoil that the Ogden's ltd was in at this period.

Also the first 1-200 was called the new century which was then accepted as 1901 1st January.

The first series of 1-200 scraped likely because of the death of The Queen 22nd January 1901, as did not include any Royals, the revised issue June  1901 did.

Keep on coming with information
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on November 09, 2016, 04:50:43 PM
Another clue is the shape of the tail on the 'g' it is similar to others, will scan a few comparisons to show.
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Jediknight on November 09, 2016, 04:57:18 PM
The numbered series according to the adverts that appeared in the press 1-200 June 1901, followed by, in February 1902 the numbers following  201-100. The golfers are in the 400's

@David

When do you think the Un numbered Base I set of Golfers were issued in relation to those in the Numbered Series? Before, after, or around same time?
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on November 09, 2016, 04:58:56 PM
when we can establish the issue date, because of the rarity likely only a short issue period.

another thing that I will check but haven't yet is the names and images of the cards in the Actress photogravure series against the numbered series.

All these little clues narrow the period
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Jediknight on November 09, 2016, 05:17:28 PM
The numbered series according to the adverts that appeared in the press 1-200 June 1901, followed by, in February 1902 the numbers following  201-100. The golfers are in the 400's

@David

When do you think the Un numbered Base I set of Golfers were issued in relation to those in the Numbered Series? Before, after, or around same time?

I only ask because I find the composition of subjects in the Base I set strange.

It has to be issued after Feb 1900 as it refers to the Late F. G. Tait.

It contains Arnaud Massey - French Professional (error as name is Massy) who only played in the Open & doesn’t appear in Open records until 1902.

Yet it also contains W. Auchterlome - Open Champion (an error as his name was actually Auchterlonie). Yet he was only Open Champion once - back in 1893.

Knowing when the Vardon v Braid match at Eltham took place would help immensely but I’ve been unable to find any reference to it. There are 6 cards relating to that match in Base I set.
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on November 09, 2016, 05:29:34 PM
Another good question that I have been trying to answer. The large machete cards Base I would guess before but the smaller not sure but would guess after.

Ogden's sold to American trust 21st September 1901, the trust sold to ITC 27th September 1902. BAT also took responsibility 27th September 1902 but company not registered for a few days later 29th September 1902, for Ogden's overseas sales and issues.

We know from the English press that the numbered series was home issue, perhaps the base I was for the BAT issues, all were still prepared in the Liverpool factory.
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on November 09, 2016, 05:38:27 PM
Yes that would be good to know the date of that match.
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on November 09, 2016, 05:43:38 PM
just found this bit of information
Eltham Warren Golf Club, founded in 1890, is one of England’s oldest nine hole courses, and is situated on the outskirts of Eltham, South East London.
Our course was designed by renowned architect and five-time Open champion James Braid and has a local reputation for being maintained in top condition throughout the year, with many interesting features such as strategically placed ponds, ditches, bunkers and rare mature trees, some of which are centuries old.
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on November 09, 2016, 05:50:53 PM
Also found this, obviously not a championship course.

In 1890 a group of friends who, for some time, had permission to practice golf on an expanse of land called the Warren field on the eastern end of Eltham village, decided to form a club. They met on 7th May 1890 in the house of Mr Walter Richardson and formed Eltham Golf Club with a membership of eight.

The Club became sub-tenants of Mr Edwards at an annual rental of £10 and a 6-hole course was laid out. A further field, the present practice ground area, extended the playing area to a more generous 17 acres and in 1894 a very-cramped 9-hole course was laid out. Not surprisingly this soon proved to be a dangerous experiment and the course went back to six holes.

Due to nearby development the golf course was pushed further east and extended until, by 1910 or so, it occupied more or less its present site.

In spite of doubts about the future – particularly with regard to tenure of the land – the infant club grew rapidly. By early 1894 the agreed membership had been increased to 30. Some of the newcomers lived as far away as Lewisham, quite a long journey in those days, and needed somewhere to change, but it was not until the middle of 1896 that a satisfactory solution was found: then a room was rented from Mr Hands at 2 Elm Villas (Southend Crescent) at a rent of £5 5s 0d per quarter, and it was soon further arranged that tea and light refreshments should be made available.

Further expansion of membership and the formation of a Ladies Club rendered this room quite inadequate; the next move was to 14 The Broadway where it seems that at least three rooms, one large enough to form a changing room with thirty lockers, must have been rented and meals and drinks were available. This in turn was rapidly outgrown and the next move was to a whole house, Montrose, in Eltham High Street, which was rented at £45 per annum. This, then referred to in minutes as the Club House, was the home of the club until the first clubhouse on the present site was built in 1912.

During the first few years the founder members of the club and those who joined them soon after seem to have made and tended the course themselves using their own shovels, scythes, sickles and lawn mowers, but expansion from the original small six hole layout made this impractical and investment was made on a greens cutter and a fairways mower with horse (the horse cost £10).

Major refurbishment was undertaken to the clubhouse in the early 1950s, but the building was devastated by fire on Saturday, 2nd June, 1956. The Lady Captain’s Day supper that year was by candlelight in the blackened shell of the dining room.

A grand new clubhouse was built, which included a billiard room and ladies’ room upstairs, as they are today, and incorporated the old covered patio and the card room in the much larger lounge which has changed very little since it was built.

Improvements, such as the installation of a sprinkler system for the course, have continued. Parts of the course may have been eaten away by road developments such as the Rochester Way Relief Road over the years, but our club is still here, stronger than ever and continues to thrive, with membership growing.

Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Jediknight on November 09, 2016, 07:12:35 PM

David , you note this interesting feature, this one is a cracker if it can be solved.
Vardon won the British open June 1899, his third of his six wins, at St Georges in Kent, is this were the photograph was taken. The background must be recognised by someone.
A quick look at other I Base Ogdens golfer cards , I note that John Graham has the identical background,(as Vardon) and several others show glimpses of the same brick structure type.
If someone can only recognise that building with the arched window. 
Suggesting a golf club house ?    Is this your historic club house ?
Come on golf enthusiasts, please help.



http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/B2UAAOSwOdpX0n9m/s-l1600.jpg (http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/B2UAAOSwOdpX0n9m/s-l1600.jpg)

The building in the background of the James Braid image is the Club House of the Royal Liverpool (Hoylake) Golf Club.

The same building also appears in the background of several other golfers in the Guinea Gold & Tabs Series.

Seems logical that the photos would have been taken when they were all there together for a tournament, which in that era almost certainly must have been an Open Championship.

In the time frame we are looking at, the Open Championship was held at Royal Liverpool in May 1897 & June 1902.

If David is correct in saying the General Interest set containing the Numbered Guinea Gold Golfers were advertised in Feb 1902, then it leaves 1897 as a reasonable date of the images.
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on November 09, 2016, 07:35:12 PM
Well done, but consider that the 201-1000 commenced issue at Feb 1902, the numbers we refer to are 475- 480 for the golfers could be a few months later.

These are all Base I

The background all looks to me the same building
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on November 09, 2016, 07:44:24 PM
How did you find out it was the royal Liverpool golf house, would like to know that.
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on November 09, 2016, 07:54:42 PM
Sandy Herd won the open championship in 1902 and he is not featured in these cards, which suggests you are right if they are at Liverpool.
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on November 09, 2016, 08:34:15 PM
Just been checking the Cricketers & Sportsman series with cards in the Tab type series 'C' 200 - 300 and there are 21 cards using the same image.
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: searching on November 09, 2016, 10:54:10 PM
Jediknight and David, I would like to say that you guys are awsome,  your hard spent time trying to solve a card mystery from long ago deserves  credit.
I looked at Hoyoak Golf Club web site and there is a picture of Harold Hilton sitting alongside a building with that distinctive brick coping , so its a real possibility.
Further I sent two emails to Hoyoak Golf Club asking if they would view this site and the top work you came up with to confirm if the site is in fact Hoyoak..

So, I await a response from them,  I must say all this is very positive and really interesting.
The simple detail,  long forgotten,  of where these photos were taken may soon be know.

I tip my hat to you.


Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Jediknight on November 09, 2016, 11:08:16 PM
Had a look at several early images of Open venue Clubhouses & can't see any others that fit.

In several of the images there are either white posts in front of the distinctive brickwork or brick pillars curving up into arches.
If you look at at the image of the Hoylake clubhouse in the bay listing below you can see those same white posts alongside the brick pillars & arches.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ROYAL-LIVERPOOL-GOLF-CLUB-ALSO-KNOWN-AS-HOYLAKE-ORIGINAL-POSTCARD-/332013279276?hash=item4d4d88982c:g:ZgAAAOSwG-1WvjXX (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ROYAL-LIVERPOOL-GOLF-CLUB-ALSO-KNOWN-AS-HOYLAKE-ORIGINAL-POSTCARD-/332013279276?hash=item4d4d88982c:g:ZgAAAOSwG-1WvjXX)
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Jediknight on November 09, 2016, 11:14:54 PM

https://goo.gl/images/IQJiPU

Also found this image which is the one used in the Braid card. The text accompanying the photo states taken at Royal Liverpool (Hoylake) Golf Club.

Also, one of the golf subjects with those distinctive brick pillars in the background is Ryder Richardson. His caption states 'Secretary of Hoylake Golf Club.

 
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on November 10, 2016, 11:28:56 AM
The brick arches certainly look the part, see Balls picture background
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on November 10, 2016, 11:31:01 AM
The remaining cards
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on November 10, 2016, 11:34:01 AM
Post card image of Liverpool club house, note the arches in the middle front similar if nit the same as Ball's image
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: exdrummer on November 10, 2016, 01:15:29 PM
Absolutely stunning research guys, please keep going until you have all the answers. Thanks for your efforts.
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Jediknight on November 10, 2016, 04:18:06 PM
Post card image of Liverpool club house, note the arches in the middle front similar if nit the same as Ball's image


David,

That's the postcard image I was trying to show in the ebay listing I posted a link to previously.

In my opinion the same arches.

You can see below in a current image the arches still exist but have been glazed in to extend the clubhouse.

(http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w544/Jediknight1976/IMG_1684_zpsw3rruiem.jpg) (http://s1329.photobucket.com/user/Jediknight1976/media/IMG_1684_zpsw3rruiem.jpg.html)

Digging a little deeper I looked for some images of the front of the clubhouse currently:

(http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w544/Jediknight1976/IMG_1685_zpseu1ahqdf.jpg) (http://s1329.photobucket.com/user/Jediknight1976/media/IMG_1685_zpseu1ahqdf.jpg.html)

And looking at that image confirmed it for me.
Looks familiar doesn't it?

(http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w544/Jediknight1976/IMG_1687_zpsn1ept0oa.jpg) (http://s1329.photobucket.com/user/Jediknight1976/media/IMG_1687_zpsn1ept0oa.jpg.html)

(http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w544/Jediknight1976/IMG_1688_zpsrspcjbxw.jpg) (http://s1329.photobucket.com/user/Jediknight1976/media/IMG_1688_zpsrspcjbxw.jpg.html)

The arched window, the formation of the brick pillar & the circular doorbell (or whatever it is!).

Location of those images confirmed as Royal Liverpool in my eyes.




Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on November 11, 2016, 09:15:11 AM
Yes I 100% agree, good photographic evidence.
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: D. Jones on March 24, 2017, 05:12:51 AM
For those who know this set.....

Are these the only golfers in it? Just the Vardon and Hilton or are there more golfers?

thanks.
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: bri.d on March 24, 2017, 06:52:47 AM
david will no. only seen 3  Vardon.  Hilton.  laidlay ?
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Jediknight on March 24, 2017, 08:17:40 AM
For those who know this set.....

Are these the only golfers in it? Just the Vardon and Hilton or are there more golfers?

thanks.

Cricketers And Sportsmen is the adopted title for the set in question.

50 cards known.

Only 3 golf subjects:
H.H. Hilton (Amateur Golf Champion)
Harry Vardon (World's Golf Champion)
J.E. Laidlay (Scotland's Amateur Golfer)

There are 36 cricket subjects.
The remaining 11 subjects are a mixture of athletes & cyclists.
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Steve F on March 26, 2017, 12:57:54 PM
Read the entire thread from go to woe again - and love the conclusions reached after the fantastic collaborative effort...

They are all certainly hard to find - still looking for 11 of the 36 cricketers, which also must have formed some form of Redemption offer as many I have seen have the Ogden's base removed from them (I've got 8/25 cricketers in my collection missing the Ogden's Tab on the base of the cards, where they have clearly been cut off/removed)

Is anyone aware of any 'competition' or redemption associated with the Series? 

Also, while I don't have any of the Golfers (unfortunately), I've got 10 of the remaining 14 (7 also without Ogden's tabs) and would love to obtain the 11th card - Harry Hutchens; with the descriptive caption (A Veteran Professional 'Ped') - Pedestrianism was an early version of race walking

If anyone out there cares to assist...

As for the Golfers I live in hope!!!
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Ogdenscards on March 27, 2017, 06:04:50 PM
Yes only three golfers.
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: Brian Cricket on November 02, 2018, 01:06:29 AM
Yes folks lightning can indeed strike twice in the same place!!!

The wonderful land downunder has come up with the goods again, with the rare Ogden's Cricketers & Sportsmen golf cards Vardon and Hilton being unearthed in Australia for the second time. Pity the Laidley card wasn't there to make the trifecta, but 2 out of 3 isn't too bad I guess. A real thrill to add these to my collection, which normally only consists of cricket cards.

Hope you all enjoy viewing what has to be amongst the rarest of golf cards, and spur us all on knowing that there are great cards still out there to find!! Happy hunting to you all.
Title: Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
Post by: IanSammel on November 02, 2018, 09:43:40 AM
What a stroke of luck.  I hope you find the third one one day.  Thanks for sharing them with us.