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Cigarette Card Collecting Discussions => General Cigarette Card Collecting Discussion => Topic started by: Ogdenscards on December 13, 2017, 05:19:01 PM

Title: OGDENS 'A' SERIES - Football QUESTION
Post by: Ogdenscards on December 13, 2017, 05:19:01 PM
Am trying to date the 'A SERIES', and found a clue, cards 40-50 show Tottenham players, eleven of them, and refer to them winning the English cup, which was played at Crystal Palace on the 20 April 1901 (2-2), replayed 27 April 1901 (3-1). Also card no 61, shows the winning cup.

Clearly this set cannot be before the winning side was known, but when was the players photos taken. Card no 44 shown below shows the player Jas R MaCnaughton but he did not play in the final according to the internet. The player not included in the eleven cards that played is John Cameron

My question when did he play, was it in the semi finals when the teams were known and included him. He was a tottenham player. So why have these eleven players been chosen as the cards. The answer I think will be when the cards were chosen he would have been playing, so what was the last date he played.

Geo lawley  the name on the back - should be George Clawley - so this is an error card but there is no caption just a correct autograph. The error looks like a printing error as there is space for the C. Will have to check to see if a correct spelling exists.

My guess this was a mid 1901 issue allowing say 5 weeks for preparation June - July - August 1901, the first of the A-F series of cards, but could be including May and with out the lead in period. There are no other numbers in the 150 cards that follow this date.
Title: Re: OGDENS 'A' SERIES - Football QUESTION
Post by: Jediknight on December 13, 2017, 11:21:02 PM
David,

The example of the Clawley card you show looks like a bad print job as opposed to an error/s with the text. As well as the 'C' missing from 'Clawley', your example has the 'C' missing from 'Club' & the 'C' missing from 'Cup'. The 2nd 'N' is missing from 'Winners' on both occasions the word is used and 'Also' is missing the 'A' & 'S'. Don't know if that is likely to have been an issue with ink distribution or damage to printing plate etc.

I have an example of that card and all the text including the name 'Clawley' is correct & properly printed.

As for the timing of the photos & McNaught being included instead of Cameron:
1. Cameron was the manager that season as well as playing (Player-manager). He played in all 8 F.A Cup matches that Tottenham played that season (9 players played all 8 matches, 2 players played 7 matches & 2 players played 1 match each).
So it seems strange not to have included Cameron.
2. McNaught was one of the players that only played in 1 match out of the 8 in the cup winning run. That was the very first round match versus Preston North End (played 9th Feb 1901). He doesn't appear in any of the team line ups after that date. He remained at Tottenham until 1907 so wasn't transferred. I would guess he was probably injured for remainder of the season although he could also possibly have been left out as a tactical decision.
The fact he was photographed probably means they were taken much earlier in 1901 when he was playing but doesn't explain why Cameron wasn't photographed/included as he played throughout the season.
Title: Re: OGDENS 'A' SERIES - Football QUESTION
Post by: Jediknight on December 14, 2017, 08:17:36 AM
David,

Just checked through my cards and John Cameron is included in the 'A Series' although for some reason he is not in sequence with the other Tottenham players.

I have the following checklisted:
40.  David Copeland (Tottenham Hotspur)
41.  Geo. Clawley (Tottenham Hotspur)
42.  J. Kirwan (Tottenham Hotspur)
43.  T. Morris (Tottenham Hotspur)
44.  Jas. R. McNaught (Tottenham Hotspur)
45.  Alex Brown (Tottenham Hotspur)
46.  A. Tait (Tottenham Hotspur)
47.  E. Hughes (Tottenham Hotspur)
48.  H. Erentz (Tottenham Hotspur)
49.  John Smith (Tottenham Hotspur)
50.  J.L. Jones (Tottenham Hotspur)
61.  The English Cup
65.  Tottenham Hotspur Team, 1901
67.  J. Cameron (Tottenham Hotspur)

That makes more sense as couldn't work out why Cameron would be excluded.
#49 John Smith - correct name is Tom Smith

The team photo (#65 contains all the players listed above apart from #44 McNaught)
Excluding the two coaches/trainers the team photo shows:
Back row left to right, Harry Erentz, George Clawley, Alex Tait,
Middle l to r, John Cameron (player-manager), Tom Morris, Edward Hughes, John Leonard Jones, John Kirwan
Front row l to r, Tom Smith, Alex Brown, David Copeland

So 12 of the 13 players that participated in the F.A Cup winning run are featured with Robert Stormont being the missing name.
He only played in 1 match as did McNaught. The one match they both played in was the first round versus Preston (9th Feb 1901) yet McNaught features on a card and Stormont doesn't. 

https://www.11v11.com/teams/tottenham-hotspur/tab/players/season/1901/comp/7/ (https://www.11v11.com/teams/tottenham-hotspur/tab/players/season/1901/comp/7/)
Title: Re: OGDENS 'A' SERIES - Football QUESTION
Post by: Ogdenscards on December 14, 2017, 10:53:05 AM
Well spotted Jed knight, just found the Cameron and team card myself, should have looked. That question is now thoroughly answered. There is a picture of an uncut sheet with both these cards been shown,unfortunately file to large to show. The sheet is shown in the Tilotsons book, the printers of the TABS.

The date of preparation of the cards, perhaps a little earlier when MaCnaught played, think we can now accurately establish the early part of 1901 and issued just after the match, 27 April.

Likely then May - June - July, time must be left for the remaining series, B-F. Looking though those cards in detail will be able to date each those series, my task over the next few days. 'F' Series in the final numbers are Southampton and Sheffield United players of the 1902 FA Cup.

Think we can progressively date each of these series as they must be in order of issue and if, English Cup 1901- English Cup 1902, then we are thinking May 1901 - May 1902 for all A- F series and some of theses series had large numbers within.
Title: Re: OGDENS 'A' SERIES - Football QUESTION
Post by: Ogdenscards on December 14, 2017, 10:59:43 AM
Looking at the Clawley card more closely yes I can see what you mean a bad printing, probably a printing at the end when block a little worn. Also pleased to know that good printing examples exist, will have to now find one.
Title: Re: OGDENS 'A' SERIES - Football QUESTION
Post by: bri.d on December 14, 2017, 11:06:42 AM
the letters where made from lead. easy to work with .but very easily worn
Title: Re: OGDENS 'A' SERIES - Football QUESTION
Post by: Jediknight on December 14, 2017, 12:14:26 PM
The printing on back of my Clawley card:
Title: Re: OGDENS 'A' SERIES - Football QUESTION
Post by: Jediknight on December 14, 2017, 12:33:32 PM
The only football card in the 'B Series' is #18 Tottenham Hotspur v Sheffield United.
It's an action photo of Tottenham scoring their 3rd goal in the Cup Final Replay on 27th April 1901.
The card is a bit out of place in the 'B Series' & belongs with all the other Tottenham/1901 F.A Cup Final cards in the 'A series' so can only assume the photo taken on this date was too late to be prepared/included in the 'A Series'.
There must have been a small window after the F.A Cup Final before the release of the 'A Series' - the back text for those other 'A series' Tottenham cards were done after that date as they reference the result but the photo taken on that date wasn't able to be included as a card in the 'A series' & had to wait until the 'B Series' was prepared/issued. 
Title: Re: OGDENS 'A' SERIES - Football QUESTION
Post by: Ogdenscards on December 14, 2017, 03:26:42 PM
This is great information, did not know that lead a soft metal was used in the printing, can see how it would wear away.

Thank you for that example of a good printing of the same card, am sure Alan will be interested in that for his site.

Also your logic for the 'B' series certainly seems plausible and probably very likely, this is definitely aiding the dating of these series, want to work onto each of the Series A-F.

I do have the list of every card typed out and notes on each series but wanted to add  to and complete.

The Red book of 2005 states 1900-1903, its not wrong but with this effort we can more accurately pinpoint the issue period. Following the ITC take over it became the norm to introduce a series of cards every 3 months. The logic must have applied in some similarity to that and in this instance one series replacing the previous.
Title: Re: OGDENS 'A' SERIES - Football QUESTION
Post by: Ogdenscards on December 14, 2017, 04:18:28 PM
Another interesting factor is that Ogdens sold to the American Trust end of September 1901 and resold to ITC 27th September 1902, a similar period to the issue period we are discussing.
Title: Re: OGDENS 'A' SERIES - Football QUESTION
Post by: Ogdenscards on December 14, 2017, 05:12:06 PM
Cards 128 & 129 'B' Series state cricket season 1901-02, places a bit of a contradiction to my theory. Will have to keep thinking.
Title: Re: OGDENS 'A' SERIES - Football QUESTION
Post by: bri.d on December 14, 2017, 06:20:14 PM
i found several pics in a book in bolton museum few years ago. inside  tillotsons factory early 1900s. preparing the printing blocks ready for the text to be printed in the news papers. there was a brief description wooden blocks with lead letters. each letter had to be placed by hand
Title: Re: OGDENS 'A' SERIES - Football QUESTION
Post by: Ogdenscards on December 15, 2017, 09:46:30 AM
I have a book on Tilotsons 1850-1950 by Frank Singleton, but there is no pictures of printing block so must be a different book. Wonder if it is still in the museum.
Title: Re: OGDENS 'A' SERIES - Football QUESTION
Post by: bri.d on December 15, 2017, 10:47:51 AM
unfortunately david i cant remember the name of the book.  it was then likely in a life in bolton or history of bolton something along them lines.  the tillotsons book is free on the internet.
http://tillotsonhistory.co.uk/onewebmedia/Tillotsons%201850-1950.pdf (http://tillotsonhistory.co.uk/onewebmedia/Tillotsons%201850-1950.pdf)
Title: Re: OGDENS 'A' SERIES - Football QUESTION
Post by: bri.d on December 15, 2017, 03:05:38 PM
david it says in the book the first order from ogdens. was in 1898 which do you think where the first ones.
Title: Re: OGDENS 'A' SERIES - Football QUESTION
Post by: Ogdenscards on December 20, 2017, 05:06:50 PM
I think the  first orders were cartoons or packaging. They also made the tips or mouth pieces for the Guinea Gold cigs.
Am thinking, going through each series that 1900 would be the earliest perhaps even 1901, but for now 1900.
Title: Re: OGDENS 'A' SERIES - Football QUESTION
Post by: bri.d on December 21, 2017, 06:54:48 AM
 interesting. may be looking in the wrong place. there the carton/package making factory was transferred to Liverpool, in 1900
 
Title: Re: OGDENS 'A' SERIES - Football QUESTION
Post by: Ogdenscards on December 21, 2017, 08:59:55 AM
Yes it was but existed before moving, are you looking in Frank Singleton's book?
Title: Re: OGDENS 'A' SERIES - Football QUESTION
Post by: bri.d on December 21, 2017, 09:10:03 AM
no found it here http://launcestonthen.co.uk/index.php/the-place/launceston-businesses/tillotsons/ (http://launcestonthen.co.uk/index.php/the-place/launceston-businesses/tillotsons/)

but also found this clearly cartons 1890 liverpool  http://www.escent.ai/lever-tillotson?lightbox=dataItem-iqxz0q81 (http://www.escent.ai/lever-tillotson?lightbox=dataItem-iqxz0q81)

Title: Re: OGDENS 'A' SERIES - Football QUESTION
Post by: bri.d on December 22, 2017, 11:05:45 AM
just come across this on ebay its the same picture has tabs c series card no 49 holbein

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Antique-Print-1901-Games-Grasmere-Sport-Holbein-Channel-Swim-Dublin-287M164/142613609653?hash=item21346efcb5:g:sjEAAOSwh1paJJcS (http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Antique-Print-1901-Games-Grasmere-Sport-Holbein-Channel-Swim-Dublin-287M164/142613609653?hash=item21346efcb5:g:sjEAAOSwh1paJJcS)

tabs c series card no 40 41 42 same  pictures in. the tatler 11 sept 1901
Title: Re: OGDENS 'A' SERIES - Football QUESTION
Post by: Ogdenscards on December 22, 2017, 05:38:51 PM
Yes Brian, many of the photos in both the Tabs and the Guinea Golds are found in the press often large perspectives. Going through the National newspaper archives, particular events on cards can be seen in the press and often the same pictures. I think its a good way to date events accuratly.
Title: Re: OGDENS 'A' SERIES - Football QUESTION
Post by: bri.d on December 23, 2017, 12:21:20 PM
 yeah there fairly easy to find.  where the item 95 96 97 etc. issued in pkts of tabs or a different brand. also did you no. lever bros. where  closely connected to tillotsons in family & business.