Cigarette Card Collecting Discussions => General Cigarette Card Collecting Discussion => Topic started by: ridgeback on April 15, 2018, 10:04:50 PM

Title: Ogdens Guinea golds again !
Post by: ridgeback on April 15, 2018, 10:04:50 PM
Some of you may recall that a couple of years ago I picked up an album with around 800 GGs in it.Since then its sat in my card collection pretty much untouched,that was until my last auction find when there were another 100 GGs found.
Anyway, having chatted to David a while back about the complexity of GGs I decided I would buy the new "Card Issues of Ogdens" book and have a good read before diving in and sorting them out.
The book is a mine of information without a doubt,although to be truthful I found the reproductions of the cards poor,and I was rather hoping it would contain a list of the numbered series 330S 1/1148 but it does not..or if it does I cant see it.It tells me about all the variations in the set but not whats in it..more disappointment.

So my question is simple

Can anyone point me towards a list of the subjects in the 1/1148 series,I presume as they are all numbered such a list must exist ? As far as bases go I think I will deal with those later .
Title: Re: Ogdens Guinea golds again !
Post by: madmike on April 21, 2018, 07:16:02 PM
David may have prepared one for his book, but otherwise, I don't think one exists. In my experience, the Reference Books tend to only list subjects of unnumbered sets, the reasoning being that you wouldn't know from an unnumbered set what to collect otherwise, whereas with a numbered set, you can of course go by the number. As far as I am aware, the only numbered cards which have their subjects detailed in the Ogdens book are ones where there are varieties in the subject for the given number.
Title: Re: Ogdens Guinea golds again !
Post by: ridgeback on April 22, 2018, 09:11:31 AM
Thats great Mike,thanks for taking the time to reply.I know what you mean about the numbers,but it would be great to have a list of subjects so you could look out for them,if they were listed you could also cross them off in the book as you went,although maybe that's all a bit too trainspottery :-) . I also noticed there are more than 1 GG series numbered so how does a GG newbie know which numbers come from which series ?..

Anyway your post seems to confirm what I had thought,so thank you.
Title: Re: Ogdens Guinea golds again !
Post by: bri.d on April 22, 2018, 10:14:13 AM
There are 5 sets of Numbered cards 1/1148. New series 1 on the bottom of the card. 1-400. New series 1 with prefix B B1-400
series C with prefix C C1-300.
Title: Re: Ogdens Guinea golds again !
Post by: Ogdenscards on April 24, 2018, 11:47:39 AM
Yes I do have the complete list of all the subjects in all the numbered and unnumbered cards of Ogdens, Tabs, GG's, and the standard cards.

Progress has been slow the last twelve months been 100% on a claim with the bank.

It is my intention to, rather than one huge book to divide my writings into about 12-15 sections, each being sold separately. One section will be purely on the numbered Guinea Gold cards showing all the names and themes. Some of the images I have already shown on this site previously showing varieties.

The number of pages is dictated by the number of images, the more there is the fatter the section. What I am thinking now is A4 magazine type on each section, similar to "The Card Scene"

The immediate sections that I have used are similar to the world index namely

Pre ITC the OGDEN'S ERA which is up to 1902.
The ITC era end of 1902 -1940 and some a little beyond.
BAT section covering all overseas cards
A section for the TABS
GUINEA GOLD Section but broken down in to numerous sub sections, numbered, New series, Boar War and China, Base M, and other Bases
Tins & Packets
Advertising and promotions

Within all these sections there is the history of the progress of the factory and people, evidenced by the newspaper adverts and the archives in Liverpool.

The red book is great and has been really useful for me but lacks in certain circumstances, a few you have already stated, limited and poor images, and only the unnumbered cards listed.

I have listed every card and tried to establish a limited theme of categories as often by just knowing the name doesn't give you sufficient information to distinguish between the name of a horse or a dog, which can be irritating when certain dealers organise their stock by themes such as Horse Racing or Football.

Another comment I have used in the description of a series is how easy or difficult the series or in some circumstances particular cards are, have also identified the premium cards. There is a slight issue with this in that the cards I identify as rare or premium will be used by dealers in the amount they charge, but most of them they already know, but there are a few they do not.

All the sections will not be ready in one go but progressive. Another problem is that I do not have in my collection some of the cards I wish to have scans of, but this does improve with time.

Also if you are a member of the CSGB then you will be seeing in the CARD WORLD magazine the new finds of OGDEN's, most of which has been by myself but others have certainly contributed.

Its a bit of a dilemma whether to hand out my list to assist people but that will deflate somewhat the eventual issue of my works. The whole thing started for myself just to list what I have and what I want, which progressed to find out the information not included in the red book.

I will with enthusiasm and to the best of my ability answer any questions on the subject of Ogdens and also appreciate any contribution.

Just to end I turned 60 yesterday and will be at the convention on Saturaday, please tap me on the shoulder and introduce yourself, and bring along your examples or questions.
Title: Re: Ogdens Guinea golds again !
Post by: GuineaGoldjr on April 24, 2018, 07:31:20 PM
Happy birthday for yesterday David.
Myself and all other Ogdens collectors await the publishing of your work with bated breath-any timescale on when you will be releasing the first one?
Do you intend to print paper copies or just make them available online to download?
Hopefully any collectors who have cards that are not shown in your publications will inform you and also provide pictures of these unlisted cards so that you could maybe publish an amendment/update say once per year?
Title: Re: Ogdens Guinea golds again !
Post by: Ogdenscards on April 27, 2018, 11:10:06 AM
They will be initially in paper form.

Noticed I missed out saying the BAT section which includes the Overseas cards.

When I am not sure but when I can afford the publishing which may be later on this year.

Have you found some more unrecorded cards, if so would like to know.
Title: Re: Ogdens Guinea golds again !
Post by: GuineaGoldjr on April 29, 2018, 10:15:28 AM
Just got a job lot of DD Boer war and the first card when I opened the album was a small size Albermarle with the 2 "Rs"-know this is not an unrecorded but it's the first one I have come across.
Couple of large size DDs I have not in the book but pretty sure they have already been recorded-156a and 179b?
Only need around 20 cards to complete the large DD series-do you have any available?
What did you think to the "Ogdens" unrecorded General White postcard size card on Ebay the other month-didn't seem to be anything on it that indicated it was an Ogdens issue??
Title: Re: Ogdens Guinea golds again !
Post by: Ogdenscards on April 29, 2018, 01:46:09 PM
The card you are referring to is definitely not an Ogdens card nor any card that was free with a product, it is considered and have discussed this with Martin Murry and the seller, to be a purchased card. There are others.

The Albermarle card is rare and good to have, did have a few duplicates of that card.

Have not completed the large Boar War myself but close and have many duplicates.
Title: Re: Ogdens Guinea golds again !
Post by: GuineaGoldjr on April 29, 2018, 04:02:54 PM
Cheers for that David.
When you get the chance to have a look through your large DD duplicates let me know and will message you my wants list.
Title: Re: Ogdens Guinea golds again !
Post by: GuineaGoldjr on May 07, 2018, 02:24:43 PM
David-have also come across one of the DD Boer war cards in base D4 with the caption either side-know that several of these are known in the small sizes but this is a large one-is this previously known?
Title: Re: Ogdens Guinea golds again !
Post by: Ogdenscards on May 08, 2018, 09:31:58 AM
You to have become such a spiciest that you are out growing the red reference book, these details have not been catered for or are well hidden with in the wording, there is a caveat stating perspective and caption sizes have not been mentioned. The red reference book is brilliant and very informative but does have its limitations.

Examples of differences are being noticed that the book does not mention and what you refer to may well be just such another example. Will have to see scans of the card you refer so that I may comment and compare with my own collection.
Title: Re: Ogdens Guinea golds again !
Post by: GuineaGoldjr on May 08, 2018, 05:43:02 PM
Thanks for the reply David-the card is a large size DD Boer war number 189 in the Red book "A 12 pounder field gun in action".This is listed as being produced in Bases D2 and D4.As you can see from the scan the 2 I have are both D4-one has the caption to the LHS and the other to the RHS.(You won't actually see from the scan because it won't let me attach it!!).
Title: Re: Ogdens Guinea golds again !
Post by: ridgeback on May 08, 2018, 09:09:46 PM
I was wondering the same thing,the thing is I dont really know if these are both the same base,they look it to me although i noticed one card is slightly bigger than the other.It would be great to know if these are different bases,and which ones which. (http://)
Title: Re: Ogdens Guinea golds again !
Post by: Ogdenscards on May 09, 2018, 02:08:47 PM
Referring to your two pictures, they are clearly the same overall picture, 'LOADING A 15 POUND FIELD GUN', but do have subtle differences. These are two different base types the top is D4 the lower D3a.

If you look at the red reference book page 179 item 167, it states that this card  is found in base 2, 3a, & D4 and you have present two of the base types. We use the Base types to dfferentiate between cards but there are more differences than just the base and these two cards demonstrate just that.

The main differences are perspective of the picture, The D4 is a wider picture showing an extra man standing behind the gun, also more sky. Other differences that can be found are, image and caption size, different font used in the caption and left or right hand bases to the caption in horizontal cards, both these cards are examples of each of these differences.

You sometimes hear the expression small and large head, that is simply a perspective difference, the larger the head the closer the perspective.

Now how to identify the different bases, the differences are subtle but purely identify a different print run. The D1, D2, D3 & D3a are usually the smaller cards compared to the usually large D4's but this cannot, depending on trimming, be always relied upon.

You need to look at the 'a' in the word cigarettes, if you see a line or more often a little stub leading to the 'a' as in real writing then it is not a D4, D4 are all the cards that do not have this adornment to the 'a'. The differences between the bases D1, D2, D3 & D3a are the shape of the tail to the 'g' in the word cigarettes. The difference between a D3 & a D3a is simply the gap between the 'e' and the 'n' in the word 'Ogden's'. D3 the 'e'and the 'n' are almost touching the D3a has a standard spacing.

These references for the different bases have been used by collectors for decades now and cannot be changed without further confusion, they express different print runs even though more are known.

D4's also can vary, but these differences are not picked up in the reference book but are obvious when comparing cards, size can often express a difference, some D4's can be very large as wells being the same small size as others. To me this is a different print run and a variety to this picture. It is not uncommon to find ten varieties of the same picture.

Hope this has made it clear can be a bit long winded at first but once you grasp the basic principals not difficult.
Title: Re: Ogdens Guinea golds again !
Post by: Ogdenscards on May 09, 2018, 02:22:06 PM
Paul - The scan you have must be to large for this program, I have that trouble. If you use jpeg as opposed to PDF with a resolution of 150 or less you should be able to load.
Title: Re: Ogdens Guinea golds again !
Post by: Ogdenscards on May 09, 2018, 02:30:04 PM
Paul, just checked my large cards, and yes card 189 is found in D4 with the base to the left and right. My base to the left shows less smoke to the left and the gun carriage to the right. the base to the right the opposite more smoke and no gun carriage, are both your cards the same.

I have scanned my two examples, both are D4 and both are the large cards.

This to me is a variety but again not identified in the red reference book clearly. Page 181 does refer to card 189 as having base to both left and right but does not mention the large card.
Title: Re: Ogdens Guinea golds again !
Post by: GuineaGoldjr on May 09, 2018, 05:49:55 PM
Hi David-yes the 2 you have pictured are exactly the same as the 2 I have.
If nothing else it shows that I am checking them and taking notice of differences!