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Author Topic: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens  (Read 7998 times)

Ogdenscards

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Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2016, 12:19:50 PM »
Vardon won the British open June 1899, his third of his six wins, at St Georges in Kent, is this were the photograph was taken. The background must be recognised by someone.
Always looking for interesting cards and associated goods issued by Ogden's you can see samples of cards I am looking for in the wants section.
Best Regards David

Jediknight

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Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2016, 10:01:27 PM »
David,

According to Pg 35 of Derek Deadman's 1985 edition of "Cricket Cigarette and Trade Cards - an extended listing", these cards are recorded as Cricketers and Sportsmen (Adopted Title), Unnumbered (50), Green Gravure printing, 1899 - 36 Cricketers.

Your note indicates you don't believe them manufactured until 1901/02 - can you identify why you think this is the case?

I've always believe Deadman's research was pretty accurate and he also suggests that the Base M's (both the wide spaced and closed spaced capitals) were produced in 1899 as well.

It makes sense whenever both sets were produced that they were done in the same time frame as the English Cricket subjects in both issues are similar.

As posted earlier I've got a fair few of these cards 35/50 (25/36 cricketers & 10/14 others - no golfers) but would love to be able to also confirm whether they are 1899 or 1901/02.

Hope you can confirm one way or the other?

In my opinion the Cricketers & Sportsmen set can't possibly have been issued prior to 1900.

This is based purely on the 2 golf cards shown in this thread.

The caption on the Vardon card states 'World's Golf Champion'. He was referred to as this after he won the Open Championship in 1899 (for 3rd time) & then travelled across the Atlantic in 1900 for a mini tour of the USA & Canada playing numerous matches. He then proceeded to win that year's U.S. Open (October 1900) & in doing so became golf's 1st international celebrity.

The caption on the Hilton card states 'Amateur Golf Champion'. Hilton won the Amateur Championship in 1900 & again in 1901.

Based on that I'd be inclined to believe late 1900 was the earliest the set could possibly have been issued.
And although Hilton won the Amateur Championship again the next year (1901), The Open Championship (James Braid) & U.S. Open (Willie Anderson) were won by other golfers.
So would be unlikely Vardon would still be referred to as 'World's Golf Champion' after that.

Therefore I would think late 1900/early 1901 is the timeframe the set was most likely issued in.

As I said, that is based purely on having seen the scans of those 2 golf cards. I don't have any cards from that set in my collection. Are there any subjects &/or captions in the cricketers or other non-cricket subjects that could help prove or disprove 1900/01 as the issue date?

« Last Edit: November 08, 2016, 10:25:13 PM by Jediknight »

searching

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Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2016, 05:30:31 AM »
You guys make my head hurt, (big smile) but can we can solve the puzzle?
I disagree that the images are after 1900. And stand happy to be corrected at a later time if need be.

Thankyou for your input, Jediknight , David, Steve F, you all have good points.

Jediknight, you wrote,
“In my opinion the Cricketers & Sportsmen set can't possibly have been issued prior to 1900”.
“The caption on the Hilton card states 'Amateur Golf Champion'. Hilton won the Amateur Championship in 1900 & again in 1901”.
But, Harold Hilton was the 1897 Amateur Champion (+ 1892 champ) and the Low Amateur in 1898.

On the Vardon card , you wrote,
“The caption on the Vardon card states 'World's Golf Champion”
“He was referred to as this after he won the Open Championship in June 1899 (for 3rd time) “
So you actually say he was referred to as the Worlds Golf Champion prior to 1899..  (which is what is printed on the card)

And Jediknight, they are very good points of interest to ponder over.

David , you note this interesting feature, this one is a cracker if it can be solved.
Vardon won the British open June 1899, his third of his six wins, at St Georges in Kent, is this were the photograph was taken. The background must be recognised by someone.
A quick look at other I Base Ogdens golfer cards , I note that John Graham has the identical background,(as Vardon) and several others show glimpses of the same brick structure type.
If someone can only recognise that building with the arched window. 
Suggesting a golf club house ?    Is this your historic club house ?
Come on golf enthusiasts, please help.

Now on Ogdens cards and some references I found using my Murrays book.
Murrays note the set 50 Cricketers and Sportsmen as 1898.  A fair indicator at this point in time.
The set is not listed there as an Australian issue or under Other Overseas Issues, not in my publication anyway.

Steve F points out possibly M base , but Steve I cant find any base that has the word OGDENS spelt in capitals, so I don’t know what that means, I did try a check of all the bases, but my resource is limited..

The Ogdens I Base 1901 Vardon card (with the identical image), has the caption  “1896 , 1897 ,1899 and American Champion 1900” on it.  This obviously has to be produced after October 1900. 
So if my Vardon Ogdens card was also printed after October 1900, why would it would have that same caption.

Another factor I think its earlier is that it is not a photographic photo, like nearly all other early Ogdens cards. Possibly even by a different printer.

My suggestion is the 1898 set is the original image used over by Ogdens on various cards, and used by other brands on their cards, over various years..



Jediknight

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Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2016, 12:52:56 PM »

Jediknight,

On the Vardon card , you wrote,
“The caption on the Vardon card states 'World's Golf Champion”
“He was referred to as this after he won the Open Championship in June 1899 (for 3rd time) “
So you actually say he was referred to as the Worlds Golf Champion prior to 1899..  (which is what is printed on the card)


@ searching

That's not what I was saying.

I meant he was not not referred to as World's Golf Champion until after he won the 1900 U.S Open to go along with The Open Championship he won the previous year. So therefore in my opinion the caption & hence the card couldn't/wouldn't have been produced/issued until October 1900 at earliest.

When you refer to the date of the images, that brings up a whole different question. The images used may well be earlier. Some of the other Guinea Gold golfers use images that were taken at least 2 years prior to the card being issued, so the images on your cards may well be from prior 1900.



Jediknight, you wrote,
“In my opinion the Cricketers & Sportsmen set can't possibly have been issued prior to 1900”.
“The caption on the Hilton card states 'Amateur Golf Champion'. Hilton won the Amateur Championship in 1900 & again in 1901”.
But, Harold Hilton was the 1897 Amateur Champion (+ 1892 champ) and the Low Amateur in 1898.


Harold Hilton was the Open Champion in 1897 & 1892 (not Amateur Champion) - although he did win both whilst still an amateur (as opposed to Vardon etc. who were all professionals).
He was Amateur Champion in 1900 & 1901.
Different titles/competitions.
To back this up Hilton’s Guinea Gold card caption also states Amateur Champion but along with the years 1900 & 1901 (no mention of 1892 & 1897).

The Open Championship was the most significant/prestigious title that could be won at that time.

If the set was issued after Hilton was the Open Champion in 1897, then Vardon would not have been known as World’s Champion Golfer at that time.



The Ogdens I Base 1901 Vardon card (with the identical image), has the caption  “1896 , 1897 ,1899 and American Champion 1900” on it.  This obviously has to be produced after October 1900. 
So if my Vardon Ogdens card was also printed after October 1900, why would it would have that same caption.


The Vardon card you refer to is in the General Interest numbered series not the Base I set of Golfers.

Same image, different captions as you correctly stated.

The Guinea Gold most likely issued slightly later (1902 in my opinion, judging by by the other golf subjects & captions) when he was no longer the reigning champion so just lists his wins by years.

So for me, the Cricketer & Sportsmen were probably issued late 1900/early 1901 & the Guinea Gold Golfers (both General Interest numbered & un numbered Base I) were probably issued 1902.

Only my opinion & very difficult to prove conclusively either way but always interesting & fun to hear different views.

Still great cards regardless & thanks for showing them!!

Ogdenscards

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Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2016, 04:33:50 PM »
The numbered series according to the adverts that appeared in the press 1-200 June 1901, followed by, in February 1902 the numbers following  201-1000. The golfers are in the 400's
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 10:54:58 AM by Ogdenscards »
Always looking for interesting cards and associated goods issued by Ogden's you can see samples of cards I am looking for in the wants section.
Best Regards David

Ogdenscards

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Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2016, 04:40:30 PM »
Am totally enjoying this post and this I believe is the only way any certainty can be ascertained.

Must remember the turmoil that the Ogden's ltd was in at this period.

Also the first 1-200 was called the new century which was then accepted as 1901 1st January.

The first series of 1-200 scraped likely because of the death of The Queen 22nd January 1901, as did not include any Royals, the revised issue June  1901 did.

Keep on coming with information
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 04:47:56 PM by Ogdenscards »
Always looking for interesting cards and associated goods issued by Ogden's you can see samples of cards I am looking for in the wants section.
Best Regards David

Ogdenscards

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Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2016, 04:50:43 PM »
Another clue is the shape of the tail on the 'g' it is similar to others, will scan a few comparisons to show.
Always looking for interesting cards and associated goods issued by Ogden's you can see samples of cards I am looking for in the wants section.
Best Regards David

Jediknight

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Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2016, 04:57:18 PM »
The numbered series according to the adverts that appeared in the press 1-200 June 1901, followed by, in February 1902 the numbers following  201-100. The golfers are in the 400's

@David

When do you think the Un numbered Base I set of Golfers were issued in relation to those in the Numbered Series? Before, after, or around same time?

Ogdenscards

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Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2016, 04:58:56 PM »
when we can establish the issue date, because of the rarity likely only a short issue period.

another thing that I will check but haven't yet is the names and images of the cards in the Actress photogravure series against the numbered series.

All these little clues narrow the period
Always looking for interesting cards and associated goods issued by Ogden's you can see samples of cards I am looking for in the wants section.
Best Regards David

Jediknight

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Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2016, 05:17:28 PM »
The numbered series according to the adverts that appeared in the press 1-200 June 1901, followed by, in February 1902 the numbers following  201-100. The golfers are in the 400's

@David

When do you think the Un numbered Base I set of Golfers were issued in relation to those in the Numbered Series? Before, after, or around same time?

I only ask because I find the composition of subjects in the Base I set strange.

It has to be issued after Feb 1900 as it refers to the Late F. G. Tait.

It contains Arnaud Massey - French Professional (error as name is Massy) who only played in the Open & doesn’t appear in Open records until 1902.

Yet it also contains W. Auchterlome - Open Champion (an error as his name was actually Auchterlonie). Yet he was only Open Champion once - back in 1893.

Knowing when the Vardon v Braid match at Eltham took place would help immensely but I’ve been unable to find any reference to it. There are 6 cards relating to that match in Base I set.

Ogdenscards

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Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2016, 05:29:34 PM »
Another good question that I have been trying to answer. The large machete cards Base I would guess before but the smaller not sure but would guess after.

Ogden's sold to American trust 21st September 1901, the trust sold to ITC 27th September 1902. BAT also took responsibility 27th September 1902 but company not registered for a few days later 29th September 1902, for Ogden's overseas sales and issues.

We know from the English press that the numbered series was home issue, perhaps the base I was for the BAT issues, all were still prepared in the Liverpool factory.
Always looking for interesting cards and associated goods issued by Ogden's you can see samples of cards I am looking for in the wants section.
Best Regards David

Ogdenscards

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Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2016, 05:38:27 PM »
Yes that would be good to know the date of that match.
Always looking for interesting cards and associated goods issued by Ogden's you can see samples of cards I am looking for in the wants section.
Best Regards David

Ogdenscards

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Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2016, 05:43:38 PM »
just found this bit of information
Eltham Warren Golf Club, founded in 1890, is one of England’s oldest nine hole courses, and is situated on the outskirts of Eltham, South East London.
Our course was designed by renowned architect and five-time Open champion James Braid and has a local reputation for being maintained in top condition throughout the year, with many interesting features such as strategically placed ponds, ditches, bunkers and rare mature trees, some of which are centuries old.
Always looking for interesting cards and associated goods issued by Ogden's you can see samples of cards I am looking for in the wants section.
Best Regards David

Ogdenscards

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Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2016, 05:50:53 PM »
Also found this, obviously not a championship course.

In 1890 a group of friends who, for some time, had permission to practice golf on an expanse of land called the Warren field on the eastern end of Eltham village, decided to form a club. They met on 7th May 1890 in the house of Mr Walter Richardson and formed Eltham Golf Club with a membership of eight.

The Club became sub-tenants of Mr Edwards at an annual rental of £10 and a 6-hole course was laid out. A further field, the present practice ground area, extended the playing area to a more generous 17 acres and in 1894 a very-cramped 9-hole course was laid out. Not surprisingly this soon proved to be a dangerous experiment and the course went back to six holes.

Due to nearby development the golf course was pushed further east and extended until, by 1910 or so, it occupied more or less its present site.

In spite of doubts about the future – particularly with regard to tenure of the land – the infant club grew rapidly. By early 1894 the agreed membership had been increased to 30. Some of the newcomers lived as far away as Lewisham, quite a long journey in those days, and needed somewhere to change, but it was not until the middle of 1896 that a satisfactory solution was found: then a room was rented from Mr Hands at 2 Elm Villas (Southend Crescent) at a rent of £5 5s 0d per quarter, and it was soon further arranged that tea and light refreshments should be made available.

Further expansion of membership and the formation of a Ladies Club rendered this room quite inadequate; the next move was to 14 The Broadway where it seems that at least three rooms, one large enough to form a changing room with thirty lockers, must have been rented and meals and drinks were available. This in turn was rapidly outgrown and the next move was to a whole house, Montrose, in Eltham High Street, which was rented at £45 per annum. This, then referred to in minutes as the Club House, was the home of the club until the first clubhouse on the present site was built in 1912.

During the first few years the founder members of the club and those who joined them soon after seem to have made and tended the course themselves using their own shovels, scythes, sickles and lawn mowers, but expansion from the original small six hole layout made this impractical and investment was made on a greens cutter and a fairways mower with horse (the horse cost £10).

Major refurbishment was undertaken to the clubhouse in the early 1950s, but the building was devastated by fire on Saturday, 2nd June, 1956. The Lady Captain’s Day supper that year was by candlelight in the blackened shell of the dining room.

A grand new clubhouse was built, which included a billiard room and ladies’ room upstairs, as they are today, and incorporated the old covered patio and the card room in the much larger lounge which has changed very little since it was built.

Improvements, such as the installation of a sprinkler system for the course, have continued. Parts of the course may have been eaten away by road developments such as the Rochester Way Relief Road over the years, but our club is still here, stronger than ever and continues to thrive, with membership growing.

« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 06:16:26 PM by Ogdenscards »
Always looking for interesting cards and associated goods issued by Ogden's you can see samples of cards I am looking for in the wants section.
Best Regards David

Jediknight

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Re: H Vardon & H Hilton 1898 Ogdens
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2016, 07:12:35 PM »

David , you note this interesting feature, this one is a cracker if it can be solved.
Vardon won the British open June 1899, his third of his six wins, at St Georges in Kent, is this were the photograph was taken. The background must be recognised by someone.
A quick look at other I Base Ogdens golfer cards , I note that John Graham has the identical background,(as Vardon) and several others show glimpses of the same brick structure type.
If someone can only recognise that building with the arched window. 
Suggesting a golf club house ?    Is this your historic club house ?
Come on golf enthusiasts, please help.



http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/B2UAAOSwOdpX0n9m/s-l1600.jpg

The building in the background of the James Braid image is the Club House of the Royal Liverpool (Hoylake) Golf Club.

The same building also appears in the background of several other golfers in the Guinea Gold & Tabs Series.

Seems logical that the photos would have been taken when they were all there together for a tournament, which in that era almost certainly must have been an Open Championship.

In the time frame we are looking at, the Open Championship was held at Royal Liverpool in May 1897 & June 1902.

If David is correct in saying the General Interest set containing the Numbered Guinea Gold Golfers were advertised in Feb 1902, then it leaves 1897 as a reasonable date of the images.

 

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