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Author Topic: A puzzling and disturbing experience on eBay - have you had similar?  (Read 24220 times)

PeterCS

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(1. Intro: )

The main point of this post is to ask if others here have had similar - alienating - experiences on eBay to the one outlined below.

And secondly, to offer a caution to ordinary collectors about covert and - I believe - completely unjustified practices.

I'd also like to point out that I'm not asking anyone here for support. Or asking you to take sides one way or the other. Rather, I just wonder if you have encountered such behaviour yourselves. And more broadly, whether you feel such - to my mind - unacceptable behaviour is common, on eBay or in the card collecting world generally.

When encountering this kind of business practice, I'm reminded of Steve's comment on this site - better to steer clear of eBay altogether, because of the hard-nosed markups and profiteering element you may find.

Personally however - even on eBay, with all its clear potential for shady trading - I've found the vast majority of traders well-mannered and fair-minded, also "above board" in their dealings - and even friendly as long as they are treated fairly themselves. Have I just been lucky?

Caution: this post is long, because of the necessary detail. Please don't feel you have to read on! :)

(2. First contacts with a trader - five cards, five feedbacks: )

From the particular ("business") seller in question, I bought a total of five cards in a short space of time in Oct 2013. All separate, and not offered with the combined P&P that is normal on eBay - and which is logical when a small number of cards are despatched in a single package. The P&P for each single card was high - £1.25 then (it's £1.40 now) - though it's not as if a strictly "fixed price" policy (quoting the seller) is in much need of much further boosting via a high P&P rate.

As eBay sellers tend strongly to request, and as eBay itself keeps nagging you - specifically and pointedly demanding HONEST feedback, so as to help other buyers make decisions on a proper, informed basis - I offered feedback on these trades.

I'd like to quote these in full.

Member since 05-Oct-04 in United Kingdom
100.0% Positive Feedback


1 - 10 Oct 2013: (+) "Thx for next-day delivery, VG+ condition - a very slick operation!"
2 - 10 Oct 2013: (+) "Excellent card - P&P bit steep on a single card tho, the combined P&P important!"
3 - 13 Oct 2013: (+) "A bit more silvery than I hoped, but excellent & speedy service!"
4 - 13 Oct 2013: (+) "A beautiful card!"
5 - 13 Oct 2013: (+) "What a stunning little picture! Make sure you combine P&P tho folks!!"

Please note, for what follows, all five feedbacks were marked POSITIVE. (And notice how I underplayed the condition of one card - which was frankly inferior to the illustration on eBay!)

If eBay feedback is reduced to an airbrushed, sycophantic sham, I feel this renders any such feedback misleading and about as trustworthy as a mafia favour. It misleads other buyers - and treats them (and eBay) with contempt.

(3. Further contact .... or not: )

Last Saturday (28 April), seeing a particularly interesting card offered by this same highly energetic trader that I hadn't noticed elsewhere -  btw: see the most likely reason for this below! - I attempted to buy it from the same seller. (Even with the mark-ups!)

Here's the message that came up:

"The item you've selected wasn't added to your basket. This seller won't sell to buyers that do not meet their requirements."

I tried buying a second card - to check if this was a glitch, or I was indeed being privately blocked. And a third. Same result.

I was taken aback (and nettled) by this block on the transaction. So I sent off an email to the seller. Here it is:

28 April 2014

Dear collectabilia.is.back,

Hi there,

I see I'm unable to buy from you because I'm a buyer who "does not meet your requirements".

This is interesting. Thinking what may have caused this, I can only think that I mentioned in a feedback your P&P seemed a bit steep for a single card. AND YET I gave you a positive feedback! - Is this a secret blacklist?

Please respond to this query. If it is as above - or indeed you fail to reply - you can be sure I will spread this info to other card collectors.

BW, (name etc.)

Though the seller ("seller"?) is highly active around the internet, and quick to respond to payments, he has given no reply of any sort to this urgent request for clarification, in over a week.

Given the urgency of my email, the gravity of the situation, and his high activity in cyberspace, I think it's fair to say this constitutes a refusal to reply.

Sometimes silence is not golden. It's generally a very BAD sign in business.

Unexplained and unjustified refusals to trade suggest a very narrow-minded view of self-interest - and are TERRIBLE business practice.

Because, however much the bad practitioner may wish to ignore his own bad practice - and the doubts it raises - precisely such actions tend to be talked about all the more when further honoured with such stony silence. And the odour that spreads is then not pleasant.

(4. Explanation?: )

It would have been nice to learn why my business was refused. What exact "requirements" I am supposed not to "meet" - and why?

I don't think the feedback I gave (see above) is anything like adequate cause. And, to my mind, subsequently to refuse to reply to an urgent request for clarification only compounds such bad business practice.

I also wonder how he has treated those who (I notice) have awarded him a *neutral* or **negative** feedback?

Don't get me wrong. Some would say a trader is within her/his rights to refuse to sell to anyone whose face he doesn't like, or on grounds of their gender, skin colour, etc. Or to anyone who speaks honestly, politely, and quite fairly - and in the context of *positive* feedback.

However, I believe surreptitious refusals to trade, and subsequent refusals also to justify such actions, treat the whole spirit and practice of a supposedly OPEN MARKET like eBay with contempt. Particularly when there are no evident reasonable grounds for such behaviour.

(5. More about our seller: )

Subsequent research suggests that the eBay trader in question is well known for an "energetic" policy, both in purchasing and sales, and in high-handed attitudes towards customers and collectors.

He is known for buying up stocks (where possible large lots and collections) at high enough prices to defeat competition from individual (amateur) collectors, but low enough to make a tidy profit when reselling the cards -  all individually, with carefully gauged, not inconsiderable markups. And with specially added internet-marketing hype. ("A quality card!!!")

(This practice - incidentally - tends greatly to squeeze out opportunities of amateur collectors to secure eBay items at more affordable prices.)

We can of course have different views on this. "It's simply clever business." / "It gives amateur collectors and small fry a chance of selling to this bigger fish, and making a bit of money for their collections" / "It maintains, or even stimulates, the card-collecting market, by acting as a large (and hungrily acquisitive) card bank."

Perhaps so, but the general effect is to drive up prices on the market - when selling to amateurs.

In any case, and whatever your views on such purchasing/reselling policies, I find it interesting that when this trader has posted the odd contribution on this forum, it has been markedly in his commercial self-interest, not to say hard-nosed pursuit of that self-interest, and/or to belittle any commercial competition. Thereby displaying zero interest in the cards as such, other than as commodities to make profit.

He's even resorted to exploiting this site for blatant advertising of his wares on more than one occasion: causing a thread to be locked.

But please don't take my word for it - read the evidence for yourselves:

http://www.cigarettecardcollecting.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=81

Personally, I have to say believe such combined commercial practices tend to make a mockery of (a) eBay, (b) this forum, and (c) card collecting as a hobby. But perhaps that is just my view, based on my experience.

(6. Buying and "selling": )

Again, I'd emphasise I don't want forum readers to take sides here.

However, I believe such reports as this should certainly be made public - as cautionary tales. Especially when secret practices are hushed up, and queries then ignored.

And I'd certainly be interested to know if others here have had comparable experiences of similar practices.

But why bother at all, you may ask. If a "seller" refuses to sell, without due cause, for whatever defensive reasons of his own, without even the courtesy of prior notification or later clarification of such behaviour, why not just let it go?  Apart from anything else, surely such a trader does not deserve your money - or perhaps anyone else's?

The point is, I think, that interest in buying a card always supposes a judgment by a (good-willed) buyer that, on balance, the card is worth the price. It doesn't say you are deliriously happy with all aspects of the price or conditions of sale.

Likewise, for a trader (apparently) to propose an item for (supposedly open) sale on eBay presupposes an honest offer, and a judgment by that "seller" that the card is worth selling at the price + P&P s/he sets.

If such transactions are secretly blocked, and requests for clarification ignored, then this denies honest, open trade. And wastes the interested party's time in even bothering with the trader's hyped ads.

Would I buy from our trader again? Certainly not. Until he mends his ways, in attitude and practices. In fact, it would make logical sense to consider the very same uncooperative, unhelpful approach towards this trader that he tends to adopt towards others. Only this time with more justification, and openness. In other words, something like an honest boycott. But of course that decision is not mine to make! :D

(7. Conclusions: )

If a "seller" privately refuses to trade on eBay on a fair basis while purporting to do so, and without giving reasonable notice of valid grounds for such refusal, I believe he should not be trading on eBay.

Perhaps the individual should instead open a chain of high street stores, with reinforced steel doors, and bouncers posted on them.

My core point: It's not customers who are damaging the reputation of such traders with fair, positive feedback - it is their own behaviours and attitudes that damage their name.

And it is not this customer who is restraining the (non-)seller's trade - rather, he is the one restricting trade, with secret policies and with evident contempt for fair trade and the public - in what appears an over-eager pursuit of narrowly-set and narrow-mindedly followed pecuniary goals.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 01:15:21 AM by PeterCS »

Robin Friday

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Super post , many thanks to you Peter for taking the time to share tbese experiences with us ..

Mariner tony

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Hi Peter. I agree with Dant on this one. An excellent post. I hope Lee takes the time to respond to your well reasoned comments.

MansfieldTerrier

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Hi Peter. I agree with Dant on this one. An excellent post. I hope Lee takes the time to respond to your well reasoned comments.
Unless he's been 'blocked' from responding! :D

MT ;)
  

IanSammel

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There have been other people who had problems with this seller.  However as moderator I had to delete the posts as they were just libellous comments without any further information, which could have got ccc.com into trouble so you won't find them on the forum.

I haven't had such problems myself, only general cases where a seller in one country had blocked bidders from other countries.  It's certainly annoying when you want to buy a card and then find you can't.  (If you really want to buy from him you could presumably register a second Ebay id).  Your feedback doesn't seem to be a serious reason to be blocked, but I think ultimately it's up to sellers who they sell to (why else would Ebay provide the facility to block buyers?).  Equally it's up to buyers who they buy from.  In the long run, people will vote with their wallets.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 09:11:57 AM by IanSammel »
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MansfieldTerrier

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I too have been lucky, but not every one has ...
Have a look at this, and especially the responses made by the seller!
LINK TO NEGATIVE FEEDBACK

And here are the less scathing NEUTRAL COMMENTS

And, for the sake of balance, here are his POSITIVE FEEDBACKS of which there are very many! ;)

MT ;)

« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 09:16:38 AM by MansfieldTerrier »
  

Ogdenscards

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Am aware of this seller as have bought many cards from him. He has been and still is prepared to invest many thousands of pounds to purchase cards to sell on eBay, he therefor is entitled to be able to make a living from his investment. It is not the cards he sells that determines his profit but the cards he cannot sell or has to take a hit on his investment.

Have met him a few times and chatted, yes he can be abrupt but he works everyday to ensure we collectors get to see 30000+ cards available to purchase at any one time and from the comfort of our home.

I for one expect good friendly exchanges of money and cards and am disappointed that sometimes for what ever reason it fails. Have even sold on eBay occasionally and experienced high expense for postage along with a very high amount of boring effort, which does go wrong. I have considered the postage cost many times when buying on eBay and being high but compared to the fuel costs and parking costs which is directly comparable feel it just has to be accepted. You either travel to fairs or buy online both have costs and I know which is the cheaper. Its just that their is a direct link to the card that gives the illusion of being expensive, the money spent in the petrol station is long forgotten and discounted from the formula.

I did experience an irritation when selling, buyers paid for purchases separately, I found it almost impossible to combine without investing much effort to resolve. Remember thinking this mistake was not my doing what should I do, do your best, okay when on a small scale but what if this was continually repeated, you would have to invent a policy to protect your business interests. which some may protest. There are many hidden costs that are not appreciated by the average punter, its not simply the cost of a stamp. What if you employ somebody or VAT. I am certain that when dealing with "collectables" that VAT is on turnover including postage, how many people realised that.

I could complain about many transaction's that are to me considerably worse - banks, insurance, utilities and I could name a few more but we learn to accept and we certainly do not get any explanation.

Sympathy is offered from me because of  your experiences but I do also understand business and you certainly cannot please everybody. Just imagine your feelings if somebody buys expensive cards from you, and they declare having not received them even though tracking suggests they have, are you aware that Paypal refunds the money to the buyer irrespective of circumstances. When had this experience a few times you firm up and perhaps the innocent gets the brunt.

Hope you get your disappointments neutralised and you can once again enjoy the positives.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 12:49:00 PM by Ogdenscards »
Always looking for interesting cards and associated goods issued by Ogden's you can see samples of cards I am looking for in the wants section.
Best Regards David

wandererpaul

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I've used this seller a few times and never had a problem.

I can see, and read, that some have and that they've been blocked. So we are to then assume that the PeterCS has been blocked from purchasing items. Very odd, considering his positive feedback.

eBay is an odd beast at times. You get excellent service from some and poor from others. You learn who is who.

Best of luck!

*** edit ***

Just read Ogdenscards response, which is a well written, and I agree with it.

« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 12:18:21 PM by wandererpaul »
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IanSammel

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Just imagine your feelings if somebody buys expensive cards from you, and they declare having not received them even though tracking suggests they have, are you aware that Paypal refunds the money to the buyer irrespective of circumstances. When had this experience a few times you firm up and perhaps the innocent gets the brunt.

Sending the cards is always the problem with people claimimg they have not received them.  I don't believe it's true that Paypal always refunds the buyer irrespective of circumstances.  There was a case recently on another forum of which I am a member where someone had sold something and the buyer claimed not to have received it despite it being tracked as having been delivered.  They investigated and found it had been signed for by the very same person who claimed not to have received it and Paypal decided in the seller's favour.  It was a clear case of attempted fraud.

On the other hand I have had cases where a tracked parcel was tracked as having clearly not been delivered and I received a refund. 

One possibility is for the seller to insist on sending everything tracked which the buyer will probably object to especially for low-priced items.  If the buyer insists on untracked postage then it should be made clear that he accepts the risk of loss.  Providing the seller has proof of posting then it really ought to be the buyer's problem.
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Ogdenscards

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Yes I agree with you and am pleased to hear that Paypal do listen. To have a no risk policy on postage would be extremely expensive.

Just one more thought, most if not all sellers declare their postage costs just like normal auctions, if you chose to buy from them knowing this why complain afterwards about the additional costs, why not before. I suppose the choice is between buying and not buying, because of this I always leave a simple positive feed back without commenting on postage having already accepted the additional costs.
Always looking for interesting cards and associated goods issued by Ogden's you can see samples of cards I am looking for in the wants section.
Best Regards David

MansfieldTerrier

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Re: A puzzling and disturbing experience on eBay - have you had similar?
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2014, 01:02:07 PM »
Yes I agree with you and am pleased to hear that Paypal do listen. To have a no risk policy on postage would be extremely expensive.

Just one more thought, most if not all sellers declare their postage costs just like normal auctions, if you chose to buy from them knowing this why complain afterwards about the additional costs, why not before. I suppose the choice is between buying and not buying, because of this I always leave a simple positive feed back without commenting on postage having already accepted the additional costs.
Exactly. I buy and sell on eBay and have reconciled myself to this fact.
On occasion I know that I have been ripped-off with p&p but it's a conscious choice that I make. I decide whether or not I want the item sufficiently enough to warrant being screwed on postage.

However, I do believe that the seller in question is being unreasonably bloody-minded in his refusal to combine postage. It takes no time at all to put four or five small cig cards into one envelope and post at the cheapest possible cost. To charge £5.60 for four and £7 for five tiny cards is daylight robbery regardless whether or not he makes this expressly clear at the outset. To increase in multiples of £1.40 must make him pretty much the most expensive dealer on t'interweb.

At least Dick Turpin had the good grace to wear a mask! ;)

MT ;)
  

card renaissance

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Re: A puzzling and disturbing experience on eBay - have you had similar?
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2014, 02:33:11 PM »
Yes, he is on the pricey side but he does have quite a few rare bits that you can't find anywhere else. I just buy of him if it's something I'm really after.

COLLECTABILIA

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Re: A puzzling and disturbing experience on eBay - have you had similar?
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2014, 02:34:34 PM »
Hi all,

I am willing to explain my reasons for blocking people. I will also explain my postage charges in detail and explain a little about the way ebay are currently working with regards to fees, charges and discounts.

I am not prepared to discuss what I have paid for items or collections and I would like to make it clear that anyone in business will try and maximise profit at all times - (You can always drop the price if an item does not sell - You cannot increase the price if you have sold all of your items - simply put, it is supply and demand).

Blocking people - Anyone who has a negative effect on my business will/could be blocked. This may be poor feedback comments (whether the feedback is neutral, negative or positive is not considered). Nobody has mentioned the most important part of the feedback - DSR scores - buyers score the seller out of 5 for four separate categories - postage - dispatch time - communication - item as described. Low DSR scores potentially have a massive impact on sellers which increases the fees payable to ebay. Low DSR scores are the main reason that I currently have over 400 blocked bidders on my blocked list (ebay allows you to block up to 5000 ID's).

EBAY TIP - Ebay tells everyone that DSR scores are anonymous - They ARE NOT anonymous! I can find out what DSR scores were left by every single buyer (and I run regular checks).

I do believe that ebay are officially going to make all DSR scores visible to all sellers (via an easier method) by the end of this month in preparation for big changes on the 20th august - this means leaving scores of below 5 out of 5 could get you blocked by other sellers (because sellers have to average 4.6 out of 5, leaving less than 5 out of 5 has a negative effect on them).

At the end of the day low DSR scores = higher fees for sellers that will be passed on to the buyers in some way, shape or form (passed on by professional sellers that is).

I would also like to add that since I have been selling on ebay (June 2005) I have cleared my blocked bidders list twice and I can inform all that I will not clear it totally ever again. This is because I get the same problems from the same buyers over and over again and I estimate that about 80% of the names on the list were on it the first time that I cleared it. What I can do is consider cases individually - You need to contact me at my email address for your case to be considered - leeagraves@hotmail.com - when you have people blocked you have an option not to receive any communication from those blocked buyers, therefore it is very unlikely that you will be able to contact me via ebay.

I have heard many, many times that I must be impacting my business by blocking buyers. This is not the case. We are a growing business year on year and I employ three people - This will become four in the coming months. If the truth be told blocked buyers tend to carry on buying from me in different user ID's (You did realise I know this  ;)  Didn't you?) - The only difference being I don't get any problems when they are on their second (or sometimes third ;D) user ID.

Other negative impacts that you could be blocked for - attempting to claim partial refunds - items not received claims (where the item never turns up at the buyers address or back at my address - and I have had undelivered items back from kazahkstan, brazil, argentina, Australia, Namibia amongst others).

Questioning my very fair postage/shipping charges will also get you on the blocked list. I will now try and demonstrate to you why I don't make a penny on postage over a long period of time.

Single card purchased  = £1.40

ebay and paypal fees   = 16p (the ebay fees accounted for the 15p rise from £1.25 to £1.40)
postage charge usually = 62p (could be 93p)
VAT (applicable to all)  = 23p (applicable to all postage because I am providing a service)
envelope + sleeve       =  12p
Staff costs for post       = 45p (this is what it costs me per transaction an average transaction involves 2.5 items)

Please Note - no costs have been factored in to this price for fuel and time spent getting to the post office and queueing

Cost = £1.58

Full Set purchase = £2.25

ebay and paypal fees   = 25p (the ebay fees accounted for the 15p rise from £1.25 to £1.40)
postage charge usually = 124p (average - could be higher - or could be 93p)
VAT (applicable to all)  = 38p (applicable to all postage because I am providing a service)
envelope                     =  8p
new sleeves                 = 40p (could be 24p about 80-90% of sets sold are sent in new sleeves - some are sent loose)
Staff costs for post       = 45p (this is what it costs me per transaction an average transaction involves 2.5 items)

Cost = £2.80

Please Note - no costs have been factored in to this price for fuel and time spent getting to the post office and queueing.

The only DSR score I have ever struggled with is the postage charges DSR - due to not being able to meet the criteria provided by ebay means that my fees are between £200 and £400 per month higher than someone who can meet the criteria. I get asked "why don't you make postage free?" - I take well over £20,000 per year in postage payments and the total fee discounts I can earn are about £4,000 (approx) - would you offer free postage at a cost of well over £16,000 per annum??

One last thing with this postage issue - I spent many, many hours editing thousands of listings to include the breakdowns above in my item descriptions. When I had finished and the listings were live I was contacted by Ebay within a week to tell me that I was breaking the rules and I had to remove the information from every listing. The reasons given were that no one is allowed to mention anything about ebay or paypal fees in their listings. I have also asked ebay to make it clear that VAT applies to all postage charges - They wont!!

As of 20th august ebay are changing all the rules and postage charges will no longer be an issue with regards to the DSR discounts (neither will the communication DSR). The bad news about this is that my postage charges will rise substantially (percentage wise) on or shortly after this date. The good news is the DSR will no longer be important and as long as my average score is not to heavily affected I will not have to block as many buyers who leave low scores for the postage charges. This may change if my average score drops below 4.7 or if people buy multiple items and leave low scores multiple times.

At the end of the day I run a faceless business and encounter many problems that would not be encountered on a face to face basis. I need to put processes in place to protect my business as best I can and I do fully realise that you can never please all of the people all of the time!

Any questions?????????? (I am away from tonight until Friday night)

Regards Lee.




See my eBay store - Cards From Collectabilia
My eBay user ID is - collectabilia.is.back
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/cardsfromcollectabilia

COLLECTABILIA

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Re: A puzzling and disturbing experience on eBay - have you had similar?
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2014, 02:51:17 PM »
I forgot to mention combined postage - just read another post about this.

Let me make this very clear - I COMBINE POSTAGE ON EVERY SINGLE ITEM PURCHASED WITHIN ANY 48 HOUR PERIOD. This is providing an invoice is sent/requested - excess postage cannot be refunded.

I have had to write terms into my payment & P&P info on ebay because customers are not using the system correctly (and to be honest I am sure there is a massive glitch with the ebay system, that ebay don't want to fix, now they get 9% of all postage payments taken).

If you buy multiple items from me, NEVER pay until you have received a combined invoice. I get regular messages saying that the system requests payment + postage for each item. To avoid this - Make sure you are logged on to EBAY.CO.UK (not ebay.com) - NEVER use the ebay basket - just use buy it now for each individual item. Payment is required within 48 hours of your first purchase. I repeat - DO NOT PAY UNTIL A COMBINED INVOICE HAS BEEN RECEIVED.

Also with regards to postage charges I think that I am different to all other sellers because we will send higher values before requiring insurance.

Up to £60 in combined value goes 1st class - Between £60 & £150 goes recorded - Over £150 goes special delivery. New customers may get treated slightly differently (eg SD required at £100).

Last but not least - The reason we will not make any postage refunds is because ebay will not refund the charges on any postage refunds!!! This is why we now have a strict "no postage refunds policy"

Regards Lee.
See my eBay store - Cards From Collectabilia
My eBay user ID is - collectabilia.is.back
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/cardsfromcollectabilia

MansfieldTerrier

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Re: A puzzling and disturbing experience on eBay - have you had similar?
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2014, 02:53:57 PM »
Well, I think that's pretty much cleared that up then, hasn't it?!

MT ;)
  

 

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